Hello,

At www.commondataset.org I see the 07-08 forms and was able to download them. Did I download the correct forms? I am now not sure since I have not heard that the forms are available yet.

Thank you for your help,

Stacie Cistrelli
Research Assistant
Kean University

-----Original Message-----
From: Common Data Set digest [mailto:cds@cblist.org]
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 4:01 AM
To: cds digest recipients
Subject: cds digest: September 06, 2007

CDS Digest for Thursday, September 06, 2007.

1. RE: 07-08 forms
2. RE: 07-08 forms
3. RE: 07-08 forms
4. RE: 07-08 forms
5. RE: 07-08 forms
6. RE: CDS I-3 Undergraduate Class Size

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: 07-08 forms
From: "O'Donnell SSJ, Patricia" <podonnel@chc.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 08:51:08 -0400
X-Message-Number: 1

Sue,

I inquired about a week ago when the 2007-8 CDS would be posted. The
response was: in 2 or 3 weeks. So, still waiting . . . The site you
found, where the 2006-7 CDS is posted, is the right place to look.

Pat
Patricia O'Donnell SSJ PhD
Associate Professor of Philosophy
Director of Institutional Research
Chestnut Hill College
9601 Germantown Avenue
Philadelphia PA 19118-2693
215.248.7125 215.248.7155(f)

-----Original Message-----
From: SUE GAYLOR [mailto:gaylor@lycoming.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 5:10 PM
To: Common Data Set
Subject: [cds] 07-08 forms

Hi,

Would someone please share where the CDS 2007-08 forms are located
online? I have the site for 06-07 but it does not seem to be updated
for this year yet.

Also, does anyone know the deadlines for the various publications using
CDS this year?

Thank you,
Sue

Dr. Sue S. Gaylor
Vice President for Planning
Lycoming College
700 College Place
Williamsport, PA 17701
Email: gaylor@lycoming.edu
Voice: (570) 321-4219
Fax: (570) 321-4307



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Subject: RE: 07-08 forms
From: "Liu, Peter C" <pliu@miami.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 08:53:35 -0400
X-Message-Number: 2

I was told by one of the publisher that the new CDS will come out on
September 15.

Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: O'Donnell SSJ, Patricia [mailto:podonnel@chc.edu]
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 8:51 AM
To: Common Data Set
Subject: RE: [cds] 07-08 forms

Sue,

I inquired about a week ago when the 2007-8 CDS would be posted. The
response was: in 2 or 3 weeks. So, still waiting . . . The site you
found, where the 2006-7 CDS is posted, is the right place to look.

Pat
Patricia O'Donnell SSJ PhD
Associate Professor of Philosophy
Director of Institutional Research
Chestnut Hill College
9601 Germantown Avenue
Philadelphia PA 19118-2693
215.248.7125 215.248.7155(f)

-----Original Message-----
From: SUE GAYLOR [mailto:gaylor@lycoming.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 5:10 PM
To: Common Data Set
Subject: [cds] 07-08 forms

Hi,

Would someone please share where the CDS 2007-08 forms are located
online? I have the site for 06-07 but it does not seem to be updated
for this year yet.

Also, does anyone know the deadlines for the various publications using
CDS this year?

Thank you,
Sue

Dr. Sue S. Gaylor
Vice President for Planning
Lycoming College
700 College Place
Williamsport, PA 17701
Email: gaylor@lycoming.edu
Voice: (570) 321-4219
Fax: (570) 321-4307



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Subject: RE: 07-08 forms
From: "Ellis, Jennifer" <jellis@ric.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 08:55:04 -0400
X-Message-Number: 3

I just checked the website, and the 07-08 CDS is now available.

Jennifer Ellis
Assistant Director
Institutional Research & Planning
Rhode Island College
600 Mt. Pleasant Ave.
Providence, RI 02908
Tel: (401) 456-8099
Fax: (401) 456-8209


-----Original Message-----
From: O'Donnell SSJ, Patricia [mailto:podonnel@chc.edu]
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 8:51 AM
To: Common Data Set
Subject: RE: [cds] 07-08 forms

Sue,

I inquired about a week ago when the 2007-8 CDS would be posted. The
response was: in 2 or 3 weeks. So, still waiting . . . The site you
found, where the 2006-7 CDS is posted, is the right place to look.

Pat
Patricia O'Donnell SSJ PhD
Associate Professor of Philosophy
Director of Institutional Research
Chestnut Hill College
9601 Germantown Avenue
Philadelphia PA 19118-2693
215.248.7125 215.248.7155(f)

-----Original Message-----
From: SUE GAYLOR [mailto:gaylor@lycoming.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 5:10 PM
To: Common Data Set
Subject: [cds] 07-08 forms

Hi,

Would someone please share where the CDS 2007-08 forms are located
online? I have the site for 06-07 but it does not seem to be updated
for this year yet.

Also, does anyone know the deadlines for the various publications using
CDS this year?

Thank you,
Sue

Dr. Sue S. Gaylor
Vice President for Planning
Lycoming College
700 College Place
Williamsport, PA 17701
Email: gaylor@lycoming.edu
Voice: (570) 321-4219
Fax: (570) 321-4307



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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: 07-08 forms
From: "SUE GAYLOR" <gaylor@lycoming.edu>
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 09:04:12 -0400
X-Message-Number: 4

Pat,

Thank you very much for your help!

I hope your semester is off to a great start.

Best,
Sue

>>> "O'Donnell SSJ, Patricia" <podonnel@chc.edu> 9/6/2007 8:51 AM >>>
Sue,

I inquired about a week ago when the 2007-8 CDS would be posted. The
response was: in 2 or 3 weeks. So, still waiting . . . The site you
found, where the 2006-7 CDS is posted, is the right place to look.

Pat
Patricia O'Donnell SSJ PhD
Associate Professor of Philosophy
Director of Institutional Research
Chestnut Hill College
9601 Germantown Avenue
Philadelphia PA 19118-2693
215.248.7125 215.248.7155(f)

-----Original Message-----
From: SUE GAYLOR [mailto:gaylor@lycoming.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 5:10 PM
To: Common Data Set
Subject: [cds] 07-08 forms

Hi,

Would someone please share where the CDS 2007-08 forms are located
online? I have the site for 06-07 but it does not seem to be updated
for this year yet.

Also, does anyone know the deadlines for the various publications using
CDS this year?

Thank you,
Sue

Dr. Sue S. Gaylor
Vice President for Planning
Lycoming College
700 College Place
Williamsport, PA 17701
Email: gaylor@lycoming.edu
Voice: (570) 321-4219
Fax: (570) 321-4307



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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: 07-08 forms
From: "Liu, Peter C" <pliu@miami.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 09:08:29 -0400
X-Message-Number: 5

Oops. Obviously my source is not that reliable. Thanks Jennifer.

Peter

-----Original Message-----
From: Ellis, Jennifer [mailto:jellis@ric.edu]
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 8:55 AM
To: Common Data Set
Subject: RE: [cds] 07-08 forms

I just checked the website, and the 07-08 CDS is now available.

Jennifer Ellis
Assistant Director
Institutional Research & Planning
Rhode Island College
600 Mt. Pleasant Ave.
Providence, RI 02908
Tel: (401) 456-8099
Fax: (401) 456-8209


-----Original Message-----
From: O'Donnell SSJ, Patricia [mailto:podonnel@chc.edu]
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 8:51 AM
To: Common Data Set
Subject: RE: [cds] 07-08 forms

Sue,

I inquired about a week ago when the 2007-8 CDS would be posted. The
response was: in 2 or 3 weeks. So, still waiting . . . The site you
found, where the 2006-7 CDS is posted, is the right place to look.

Pat
Patricia O'Donnell SSJ PhD
Associate Professor of Philosophy
Director of Institutional Research
Chestnut Hill College
9601 Germantown Avenue
Philadelphia PA 19118-2693
215.248.7125 215.248.7155(f)

-----Original Message-----
From: SUE GAYLOR [mailto:gaylor@lycoming.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2007 5:10 PM
To: Common Data Set
Subject: [cds] 07-08 forms

Hi,

Would someone please share where the CDS 2007-08 forms are located
online? I have the site for 06-07 but it does not seem to be updated
for this year yet.

Also, does anyone know the deadlines for the various publications using
CDS this year?

Thank you,
Sue

Dr. Sue S. Gaylor
Vice President for Planning
Lycoming College
700 College Place
Williamsport, PA 17701
Email: gaylor@lycoming.edu
Voice: (570) 321-4219
Fax: (570) 321-4307



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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: RE: CDS I-3 Undergraduate Class Size
From: "truman" <truman@uwaterloo.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:57:34 -0400
X-Message-Number: 6

Colleagues,

The publicly-supported universities in Ontario recently created an Ontario
CDS (called CUDO ¨C Common University Data Ontario). The US CDS was an
obvious starting point for such an endeavour and, if you look, you will see
significant similarities. (See
http://www.adm.uwaterloo.ca/infoiap/docs/cudo/index.html for the University
of Waterloo¡¯s CUDO data.)



Waterloo does not present section size data in the suggested CUDO format ¨C
see
http://www.utoronto.ca/aboutuoft/accountabilityreports/commonudataontario/In
structional_Faculty_and_Class_Size.htm#undergraduate for the recommended
format and http://www.adm.uwaterloo.ca/infoiap/docs/cudo/SectionH.html for
the Waterloo presentation.



The section size information is of particular interest to me. I believe that
arbitrary size boundaries can induce spurious, unsubstantiated conclusions.
And, as this thread indicates, various reasonable and valid ¡°deviations¡±
from the arbitrary selections. Even with specified size ranges, the
presentation does not fully disclose the actual experience. If size ranges
were to be used, I would recommend the percentage of time or perhaps
percentage of classes that the average student might spend in each size
range. I also observe that the level of aggregation make the data useless
for students because the student is interested in data by subject (or
program), not for the institution overall. Also, some of the ¡°exclusions¡±
required result in a significant portion of the UW educational experience
being suppressed. These considerations lead the University of Waterloo to
present our section size data by subject, showing the data without the
¡°exclusions¡± AND then, using the same presentation, the ¡°excluded¡± data.
The beauty of this presentation is that it is simply the facts ¨C no
arbitrary boundary conditions.



My 2 cents (1.95 US).



Comments welcomed about our section size presentation (or CUDO).



Bob







From: gillespie@fordham.edu [mailto:gillespie@fordham.edu]
Sent: September 5, 2007 11:04 PM
To: Common Data Set
Subject: Re: [cds] CDS I-3 Undergraduate Class Size




Colleagues,

I think Gary raises many good points. I strongly agree with the last one.
In addition, I think many good have been raised in this discussion.
However, I do not agree that if you have 38 (?) members on a football team
that there is anything natural or advantageous to having them all in one
course of 38. Given all the support we give to our athletes, I suspect that
two sections of 19 might be far superior to one of 38.

We suffer because of the cutoff at 19 too. Our maximum class size for some
core courses is 20. Because of that maximum, about 3 to 5 percent of all of
our undergraduate sections enroll between 20 and 22 students. Nevertheless,
I still report those classes in proper category, 20 to whatever. I tend to
be more afraid of deceiving ourselves if we fiddle with data than I am
concerned about a disadvantage relative to others.

Getting back to the more general issues, I can't imagine that for any
institution there is not at least one definition in CDS that places it at a
relative disadvantage and at least one that gives it some advantage. I
suspect that there are lots of offsetting effects. Nevertheless, I suspect
that every institution has at least a small net benefit or loss. I am
willing to live with that.

Of course, all of this suggests that the real problem is the use to which
these data are put. In the case of US News, any student or parent should
not take moderate differences in rank seriously. I suspect we all have our
own hunch about a "range of indifference." With that in mind, I would
prefer that exact ranks be abandoned altogether and that some measure of
indifference be developed empirically. Users might be advised that there is
no meaningful difference between plus and minus X, and that schools that are
only Y position beyond X warrant close investigation. I have given no
serious thought about how to create such a measure. It might be a
statistically Quixotic escapade.

Don

Donald A. Gillespie, Ph.D.
Associate Vice President for Institutional Research

Fordham University
TH-215
Bronx, NY 10458

Phone: (718) 817-3191
Fax: (718) 817-3203
e-mail: gillespie@fordham.edu





"Gary Larson" <Gary.N.Larson@wheaton.edu>

09/05/2007 05:33 PM


Please respond to
cds@cblist.org


To

"Common Data Set" <cds@cblist.org>


cc



Subject

Re: [cds] CDS I-3 Undergraduate Class Size








David's response touches a perennial hot-button in my office about which
I've written a significant amount for our internal discussions at
Wheaton.

First, I agree with the "fundamental assumption" if it means something
like the tale told by our admissions counselors that the small classes
that a student gets at our small liberal arts college will result in a
superior educational experience than the presumed huge classes at Mega
State University. :-)

But beyond that, almost everything breaks down at the empirical level
when we define small as less than 20 and large as greater than 50.
Within the population of Baccalaureate Arts and Sciences (and within any
of the other Carnegie classifications for that matter), there is no
correlation between percentage of classes less than 20 and any of the
other indicators measured by USNWR. For classes greater than 50 there
is actually a slightly NEGATIVE correlation between class size and other
indicators. To verify this, you can use the data USNWR supplies to IR
professionals and run cross-correlations between all of the measures
included in their ranking formula.

Now WHY would the correlation fail to support our intuition? There are
a number of reasons beyond the ones David enumerates.

1) Class size data identifies the break points at 20 and 50. While
the break points need to be set somewhere, the current ones don't quite
match pedagogical realities. At Wheaton, for a class to be genuinely
small (ie a seminar where we anticipate all students having the
opportunity to interact with the professor and each other), the magic
number is in the low to mid-teens rather than 20. A class of 18 and a
class of 24 are essentially identical in terms of constraints on
discussion. Faculty members see nothing magical about classes of 19
compared to 24.

2) Class size data for large classes conflate the purposes and
instructional design for those large classes. We all tend to abhor the
Mega State model where a professor lectures to a class of 400 with
smaller labs or drill sessions supervised by TA's. But at Wheaton and
elsewhere we intentionally design lecture/lab courses in many
disciplines that are MORE rather than LESS expensive to staff. In
History, Psychology, Biology, Chemistry, Geology, Calculus and Physics,
we have large lecture sections where the department faculty members take
turns teaching in their specialty with the lab/discussion/drill sections
also taught by tenured faculty members. While it would cost less in
terms of faculty load to teach smaller standalone sections, each
department has determined that the current model is pedagogically
superior. The current CDS definitions assume (without argument) that
our model is really that of Mega State in disguise, not only penalizing
classes over 50 but excluding all of the break-out sections as not
really important (due to presumption that they are taught by TA's).

3) Class size data is seriously confounded by institution size. Even
for small classes, there are small classes that consume additional
institutional resources because institutions prefer to deliver their
curriculum via small classes. There are other small classes which are
simply a result of not having enough students in the discipline (or
institution) to make the classes larger. Now it may still be the case
that those latter small classes are superior, but I suspect that when
class size is just an artifact of a small pool of potential students for
the class, many of the alleged benefits might not accrue.

All of this is to say that the issue is more complicated than the
reporting of two percentages.

On the other hand, I would trust that we would be able to solve the
problem at the definitional level. I get nervous when I permit myself
to "interpret" the definitions to my sense of their spirit (presumably
always to my advantage). Our constituents will find it hard to trust
our data if each of us feel justified in interpreting the definitions to
meet our own individual sense of what they "really" should be
measuring.

GARY



>>> "David Davis-Van Atta" <ddavisva@acs.carleton.edu> 9/5/2007 3:22 PM
>>>
Olya's questions raise an interesting point regarding class size data
- one I've thought about from time to time. Here it is:

The foundational underlying assumption regarding class size is:
Small = good, and big - bad. (Now, perhaps there is research to
support this general relationship. I've not seen it, but let's at
least accept that, in general, the relationship largely holds.)

But, certainly not in all cases. Some in specific might just be
Choir, Orchestra, and some other specific classes. At many schools,
including mine, these are "classes," registered for, with credit
given, just like, say, a math class, or other purely academic subject.


But, these we'll call them "naturally large" classes are different in
some fundamental ways. One of these is that they absolutely violate
the foundational principal that underlies the class size data: that
is, small = good, and big - bad. In the case of NL classes, it is
completely the other way around. small = bad!! Ad big = good.
Would we want a choir under size 20? NO! Or an orchestra? I can't
imagine it would be much of an orchestra, and certainly no kind of an
orchestral experience for those in it.

Another example (here at least) are some varsity sports teams. They
are registered for as classes, just like any other class (though only
with consent of the "instructor," i.e., the coach). Would we want a
football team under size 20? Not a chance!


So, because NL classes violate the underlying principal of the class
size data, there is a sound, reasonable case to remove them from the
analysis. Including them decidedly mis-represents the picture that is
assumed in everyone's mind when they see the data. it is quite right
and proper always for researchers to ask: what data *best* represent
the question being asked, or the issue being addressed? This is no
different. It can quite legitimately, it seems to me, simply be good
research practice to remove such NL classes from the standard class
size analyses.

What do others think?


David

David Davis-Van Atta
Director of Institutional Research and Analysis
Carleton College
One North College St.
Northfield, MN 55057
Voice: (507) 646-4292
Office: (507) 646-4284
Fax: (507) 646-4540
ddavisva@acs.carleton.edu

===========================


>>> "Olya Finnegan" <Olya.Finnegan@wlc.edu> 9/5/2007 2:09 PM >>>
Hi all, hope the new school year is off to a good start for you!

I just want to verify that I am on the same page as everybody else
when it comes to what classes DO NOT get counted in CDS I-3.

ÅN Exclude distance learning classes and noncredit classes and
individual instruction such as dissertation or thesis research, music
instruction, or one-to-one readings.
So I exclude classes like ëòMUS 038 Trombone LessonsÄY, regardless of
how many students are enrolled in them. But what about choir and band?
We have 100 students enrolled in choir, 75 in band. ItÄXs hardly
ëòindividual instructionÄY at that point :-)

ÅN Exclude students in independent study, co-operative programs,
internships, foreign language taped tutor sessions, practicums, and
all students in one-on-one classes.
What about education clinicals? Are they considered practicums? Ditto
Art Studios. Also, given that we are supposed to exclude all students
in one-on-one classes, shouldnÄXt ëòundergraduate class sections are
defined as any sections in which at least one degree-seeking
undergraduate student is enrolled for creditÄY be changed to
ëòundergraduate class sections are defined as any sections in which
at least two degree-seeking undergraduate student is enrolled for
creditÄY since we are not going to count any class with only one
student in it, anyway?

Thank you for your help!

Olya Finnegan
Information Systems Analyst
Wisconsin Lutheran College
www.wlc.edu

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